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Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology)?
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Sorry to burst your bubble.... Many people lie for attention and/or money. Often. Very often. And many bolster this by lying to folks who are already predisposed by their religion to believing fantastic things while demanding little or no proof.
This guy is a charlatan who is either trying to sell books and speaking engagements, or who is prepping to start selling books and speaking engagements.
Yes, it is a sin to lie... Especially to lie about matters of the soul. You should email this guy and let him know that.
And yes, the modem Christian concept of hell has more to do with Dantes inferno and European mythology than anything else. Your first clue on this is how God seems to have to missed that whole "Christian hell" part during the his long interactions with the Jewish people, who have concepts of an afterlife quite different from, say, modern evangelicals.
I know Christianity tends to attract folks who seek authority and certainty in their lives, but, like it or not, there are at least four different doctrines of hell in Christianity, and the one favored by the pastor of your church isn't necessarily right.
The counterpoint series of books has a great one on 4 different theologies on Hell which may interest you.
I encountered annihilationism very briefly when writing a paper on universalism. This is an evangelical book but gives a balanced look at views on hell. Would say it would give you all you need.
>One of the things that's really been bothering me is that if someone doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they aren't saved? In which case that means after I die, I won't be with my parents?
>I'm not exactly sure how eternal happiness after I die without my parents around somewhere is supposed to happen. The thought is actually pretty terrifying.
>internally I have no idea how to reconcile what happens to about a seventh of the world's population that doesn't believe in Jesus.
First, I am very sorry for the pain you are going through right now, with your parents and romance life.
Second, It is not God's will that any should perish. Yet some still believe that some are inevitably destined to perish. Which means that some believe that the universe and the totality of Creation will not one day be entirely reconciled with the will of God. Which seems to call into question the absolute divinity and omnipotence of God.
Which sounds like a non-Christian teaching.
I can't tell you what to believe, but I can tell you that "some must perish" is absolutely not a universal Christian belief, and any who say otherwise are either ignorant or lying.
Anyone can give their opinion about this topic, but no one can claim this is settled topic in Christian doctrine.
If this really, truly bothers you, you should at least be exposed to the full breadth of Christian thought on this topic. For that, I'd recommend starting here:
Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310516463
I can't tell you which one is "right." No one in here can, regardless of their level personal passion for their side.
But you should at least be told that their are multiple opinions on this topic and be free to think about all of them for yourself.
Hell is real, but not eternal. In the end all people will be redeemed by faith in the salvific work of Christ, and thus everyone and everything will be reconciled to God in Christ (as in Col 1:20).
I'd recommend Zondervan's <em>Four Views on Hell - second edition</em>, or <em>All You Want to Know About Hell: Three Christian Views of God?s Final Solution to the Problem of Sin</em>, if you want to see arguments for and against the main perspectives on hell, or <em>The Evangelical Universalist</em> if you'd like an in depth look and argument for Ultimate Reconciliation specifically.
>So if you are going to set the bar at whatever is "possible" rather than the more widely accepted "best explanation" then you've pretty much conceded defeat.
I obviously think Universal Reconciliation is the most likely or best explanation. Since I assume you disagree I am presenting you with an option that you might not have considered. I hope to convince you, at least, that it is a reasonable explanation, even if you don't ultimately adopt it.
>Listing verses isn't an argument; Please explain how each verse teaches universalism - i.e. is the best explanation for the interpretation of that verse.
Initially you just asked for where in the bible I was getting this, but I can form an argument as well. Here's a description of how three passages point to the reconciliation of all things.
In verses 15-23 we have Paul describing the marvels of Christ. Jesus is the very image by which we see God, the one all things were created by, and through, and for. He is first above all things. Then we get 19 and 20. >For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
The passage is speaking of the creation of all things by Christ, the purpose of all things in Christ, the preeminence of Christ over all things, and finally the reconciliation of all things through him and his blood.
Paul seems to think the story ends in universal reconciliation. I have a hard time seeing hell as the final "reconciliation" of God with sinners.
Paul begins contemplating the ownder of our reconciliation to God through Christ, and the wonder that he showed love to us while we were yet in rebellion against him.
He then turns to discuss the reign of sin and death in our world. He discusses Adam - the type of Christ - through whom we share in sin and death.
We then have verses 18-21: >Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Condemnation has fallen on all men, so - in Christ - God's righteousness and justification will take hold of all men.
Death has had its reign in mankind, but grace will abound all the more.
Paul begins with discussing the death and resurrection of Christ, and then turns to discuss resurrection of the dead in general. He maintains that it is by the resurrection of Christ that we have hope for our own resurrection.
We then have verses 21-28: > For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
As every one of us like Adam has turned from God and suffers the fate of Adam, so in Christ all shall be made alive.
If you are interested in going into more depth on this topic, I would recommend Zondervan's <em>Four Views on Hell</em> book from their counterpoints series. In it you'll find arguments for and against Conscious Eternal Torment, Annihilationism, and Ultimate Reconciliation.
I would recommend to you "Four Views on Hell." https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33B00WLKJFE4V&keywords=four+views+of+hell&qid=1669822076&sprefix=four+views+of+hell%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1
It covers, as one might surmise, 4 different perspectives, one being annihilationism.
Maybe a book study discussion?
The second edition of Zondervan’s Four Views on Hell is pretty balanced: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463 I’ve also heard good things about Steve Gregg’s All You Want To Know About Hell: https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300
> How does one even "read a view"?
I have not read this book myself but it’s been recommended to me a lot.
Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310516463/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_P1RAYTFH04FXB1VWPMX1
Since I'm a universalist, most of the books/resources I can recommend from personal experience are oriented around that, however I'll start by saying this looks like a good overview of each (I may pick up a copy for myself, it looks pretty good):
It's written by four different authors who each contribute a discussion about their particular view, so should present some "good faith" arguments for each. It does frame four views rather than three because it splits out purgatory/purgatorial experience into a fourth option (although in my view, a purgatorial process/experience can really be combined with any of the other three and isn't an entire position in an of itself).
Now, on stuff specific to Christian universalism, there are two modern books I can recommend from personal reading:
- That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart
- The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbot
If more ancient sources are your thing, three of the biggest names in universalism among the Early Church are Saint Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Saint Gregory of Nyssa.
Finally, there's the subreddit r/ChristianUniversalism that might have more folks with a wider range of reading recommendations or other resources.
I'll reply to your points, but I wonder if you'd give me your thoughts on Colossians 1:16-20, with a particular interest in Col 1:20.
"16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
What does the reconciliation of all things look like to you?
>Except it isn't an assumption. It is in the text - 'eternal' in both results makes them equal. To suggest there is any difference is to read something else into the text.
>
>You might not read it as addressing duration, but an age or eternal are both relating to a duration or period, and as they are contrasting there is a balance between the two.
>
>If it wasn't equal, why bother having it? Why not just say 'punishment' and 'life'?
Remember my translational and interpretive argument. Take a look at this rendering of the Greek.
“And they will go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age”
Does this demand the subject is duration, or that these results share equal duration?
> If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. (Revelation 14:9–11)
Revelation is a very image laden book, so i'd be careful reading it hyper literally, but let's take a look. The smoke goes up forever and ever, much like the smoke of Edom goes up forever and ever. Or maybe, like Isaiah 34 the image is depicting the totality of the defeat of God's enemies, not the actual duration of their smoking or torment (you can check Edom for smoke today).
> His goals in Matthew 25 are presenting to us about the judgement.
Bingo.
> You're contrasting how God dealt with his people when they were alive with what happens after we die.
I'm illustrating why you don't have to assume that having gone too far and brought the judgment of God does not - in and of itself- negate the possibility of future redemption. That's another interpretive leap. The fact that people can take the wrong path to the punishment of the age to come does not - in and of itself - confirm that this judgment is the end of the story.
If this topic is of interest to you I'd encourage you to take a look at a more in depth resource for comparing the different arguments, like the books I mentioned: Zondervan's <em>Four Views on Hell - second edition</em>, or <em>All You Want to Know About Hell: Three Christian Views of God's Final Solution to the Problem of Sin</em>.
Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310516463/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_hE5uDb8GNXD16
I believe there are multiple timelines within God's mind, the people in Hell deny Jesus in each one.
Four Views on Hell is pretty good :-)
I don't think you're an asshole. Like I said, atheists are atheist for reasons. Atheists only bother if they are deliberately rude and superficially condescending... "Zombie Jesus, Sky Fairy" etc. Even then I'm not really offended, I just feel sorry for them because they don't understand. I used to be atheist. I didn't understand then either.
One thing to remember is that The Nicene Creed is the core of belief, not the sum total.
Frankly, as far as 'judgement' goes, the doctrines of Hell are in some serious debate right now in Christiandom. Most people's vision of judgement has more to do with Dante's Inferno and Puritan cultural echos than with anything clearly stated in the Bible.
As far as 'judgement' goes, look at this:
Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310516463/
For a summary of points in the book, look for this review on Amazon:
A COMPLETELY NEW VERSION OF THE 1992 DIALOGUE
By Steven H Proppon July 17, 2016
(Just scan through the reviews till you find it, there aren't that many).
You don't have to believe one, or any of these views. What this should tell you, however, is that when it comes to 'judgement,' Christians are not sure what that even means.
There may well be plans we are not fully aware of, the Bible says an awful lot about 'redeeming the world' that seems inconsistent with Puritan-esque visions of eternal damnation and torment.
Truth is, I'm not sure what's going to happen to you, or what God's plan is for you. I am a long way from being able to say anything like "You're damned" or something like that. Personally, I recommended Christianity. But I can understand why you have trouble with that.
It sounds like you think Christianity is a trap, that we're going to be judged with the most serious of consequences, and we don't even know by what standard we are to be judged. I can understand your frustration.
The church I go to right now accepts gay and trans people in our congregation. Are we right? We think we are, because we think one of the most grave sins one can commit is to come between a person and God, and because we have good reason to think that the Bible is actually unclear on homosexuality and gender identity issues. One thing we do know, however, is that Jesus himself never condemned these things explicitly. He most certainly did explicitly say that one is not to come between people and God, nor between people and himself. That is a grave sin.
What if we are wrong?
Well, that's what confession is for. Look at this:
https://www.trinitystoughton.com/worship/sacraments/
Scroll down to Reconciliation (Confession). This isn't my specific parish, but I go to a different Episcopal Church. It has always been acknowledged that we must certainly sin in ways unknown or that we don't understand.
Like gays in church... Are the Episcopalians right? Or is Assembly of God right?
We don't know.
"Have mercy upon us, most merciful Father; in your compassion forgive us our sins, known and unknown, things done and left undone..."
And the Bible is clear that this is what you are supposed to do.
That's what grace is for, that's why we do Confession and Reconciliation almost every single Sunday, prior to Communion.
It seems like Christianity is super complicated, but it isn't supposed to be. It is about accepting grace, trying your best, and learning as you go.
We don't know everything, but we do know some things. Grace and mercy are there for the rest.
As far as 'religion is bad for society' goes... Do you watch South Park?
Do you remember the 2-part episode a few years ago, when Cartman time-traveled because he just couldn't wait for a Nintendo Wii?
He time traveled into a future with no religion, and all the atheists were still at war over how to properly be atheist... They kept saying things like "science dammit" and "science damn you!" The United Atheist Alliance vs the Union of Atheists vs the genetically engineered sea otters, or something like that.
The point is, do you really believe that once we get rid of religion, everything will be cool and everyone will just be totally excellent to each other?
I don't. I think South Park was right... We're all kind of assholes, and always will be.
Christianity to me often looks like 100,000 steps forward, and 99,999 steps back. Is it progress? Yeah. But so slow!
If you look at the world in perspective of thousands or tens of thousands of years, we've actually come a long way.
The Christian ideal of radical equality, that every single person is precious, is actually pretty extreme. Because yes, that includes Hitler. It includes Osama Bin Laden. It includes that guy who ran over a bunch of people in a Home Depot truck on a bike trail the other day.
It includes you and me, too.
Radical stuff.
I don't know entirely what the plan is. But I believe there is one.
Have you ever read The Egg, by Andy Weir? If not read this (it's short and sweet):
http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
. . . . . . . . . .
What if the reason why Jesus said to "do unto others as yourself" is because "others" are literally you?
What if God's plan for redemption of creation involves one-universe-per-soul? What if every awful, mean, fucked up thing you ever did, you did it to yourself, and that's how we learn?
Now, to be honest, I don't think The Egg is the plan. I think the plan is better than that. I think our culture probably has thousands and thousands of more years to develop, prior to any sort of judgement day.
I'm just saying, Christianity actually doesn't prevent you from asking questions like this. Some denominations encourage it.
Remember one fundamental thing: if you are paying attention, and you clearly are, you will never be a Christian until you stop looking at other Christians.
You're supposed to look at, follow, and emulate Jesus. Not anyone else.
I couldn't be a Christian until I realized that while I need to participate in my culture and fight for what I believe is right, at the end of the day, other Christians aren't what it's about.
Try paying more attention to Jesus and less attention to people. And don't listen to people who say that you can't wonder or ask questions or feel doubt.
And one other thing, because I didn't hear this until my life was one-third over, because I was raised in lousy churches....
There is an actual field of inquiry in Christianity for asking hard questions... It's called apologetics.
Google it, or Amazon it.
If you already know that, I'm not trying to be condescending. It's just that no one told me that word for the longest time. Instead they told me to shut up and stop asking questions.
Get books written by experienced people in actual denominations. I would recommend Episcopalian/Anglican, but I'm biased.
Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians aren't terrible either. Catholics and Orthodox are nice for preserving tradition, but I think they are also a little stuck in their ways.
Sorry this was long. Philosophy/theology is so complex....
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