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God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships?
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HAVE THEM READ THE BOOK GOD AND THE GAY CHRISTIAN. IT'S A GREAT WAY TO GET THEM TO REALIZE HOMOSEXUALITY ISN'T AS INCOMPATIBLE WITH CHRISTIANITY, PARTICULARLY THE NEW TESTAMENT/COVENANT, AS PEOPLE THINK. IF THEY'RE WILLING TO PUT IN THE TIME TO VOICE THEIR OPINION TO YOU, THEY MAY BE WILLING TO PUT IN A LITTLE MORE TIME TO REALLY CHECK OUT THE SUBJECT.
If you have the time you should read this book called God and the Gay Christian, by Matthew Vines.
It's full of gay-affirming arguments and most of them are based on scripture or interpretations of it. Wish I'd known about it when I was figuring everything out!
It's a really tricky subject, this, and one that can have polarising answers on either side of the debate. I think you've handled it well, and I agree with what you've said. If you haven't already read it, I'd recommend 'God and the Gay Christian' by Matthew Vines, which I found to be incredibly helpful.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this. I am always here if you need to chat. There are some great queer theology books and writing that might be helpful for you to navigate this relationship. Unfortunately, you can't really do much to change his views. This book is a great place to start.
Ya.. what will you say? What will you say?
When he asks you why you wasted all of your fûcking life telling people they deserve to burn in hell for who they love, and trying to “convert” people who don’t need converted. If/when he shows you your father touched little boys and is burning in hell for it, and you will be do because you were a brainwashed Pharisee who worshipped your father on Earth more than you did your father in heaven?
You wanna see who makes it there? How about we say a prayer and both shoot each other right after and find out Pharisee... how about we than find out the truth. About Christ’s teachings, about love.
If you loved me. Truly. Maybe you’d take the damn speck out of your eye, and try to extend me mercy and grace like Christ did. Your seriously making me question suicide because I don’t want to live in a world with people like you. You are so blinded, self-centered, and families like yours are so self-righteous. Just... either meet me where I am with my faith, like Christ did. Or be a Pharisee and take your like a wiser-than-thou, “I know everyone’s fruits and saved status” condemning self somewhere far tf away from me.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X/ref=nodl_
I’ll be honest...I’m a devout Christian. I struggle with what scripture says about homosexuality and what it doesn’t about much of lgbtq. But, the more I’ve researched, the more holes I see in the church’s traditional interpretation of those texts.
As I’ve looked at scripture, I am dumbfounded at how the church as a whole thinks it’s being Christlike by being so heartless to so many people. I also don’t know how you genuinely read it and think that the world is so black and white as many of the traditions do.
This book is currently on my to read list to understand better. God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships https://www.amazon.com/dp/160142518X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glc_fabc_v7M6FbDQFQC79 I also have a goal of genuinely learning more from people who aren’t like me.
I think part of the issue is that we end up in circles of people who aren’t like us and don’t stop to consider other people are people, too, with valid viewpoints that you may or may not disagree with but are still feasible.
I have an almost 5 year old boy. After seeing issues in the church world with parents and lgbtq children, I have predetermined that, no matter what personal beliefs I eventually land on, I will lead with loving him no matter who he is or what he becomes.
I have learned I don’t have to agree with someone to love them. I also don’t have to agree with someone to learn from them.
Before 1953? That’s a big topic... one I’m ill equipped to add any depth to. But suffice to say, many turns and phrases were used to describe different things. I think one even used a word insinuating prostitution? Context is also huge and that is an element that adds significant bulk (and complexity) to the topic.
Going to arsenokotai- it’s used in only 2 places in the original Latin Bible. Looking at the time period when the word would be commonly used, it was still rare. As such, researchers don’t have much to go on in knowing how it was used in everyday speech, and how connotations could have transformed into formalized scripture. Hence the vagueness I described.
Also, the verse that word is used in are similar except talking about some broad sexual topic. So context is relied on heavily by examining the prior and following passages.
I highly recommend reading Goad and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines. He’s really the force behind the theory I am posing here and he obviously will do it much better than myself. Amazon link below. It’s $14.
Sorry, i dont have any book recomendation for you. However, i remember me as a teenanger reading a lot of books discussing the hole bible. I just checked on amazon and this one is more or less the type of book i had read.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
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Finally, hoping all the best for you!
You may want to read God and the Gay Christian.
I'm gay and I've had no problem reconciling my faith with my sexual orientation from the time I was 14/15.
The most important thing in my mind is acknowledging that historical context impacts the way the Bible should be interpreted. The word "homosexuality" wasn't in the Bible until the twentieth century. Verses that have been used to condemn all same-sex sexual activity are surrounded by verses that would seem to approve of slavery, if taken at face value.
Jesus, in reference to Christian teaching, says that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. If teaching is sound, it will not result in the harm of those impacted it. This hasn't been the case with the conservative teaching on homosexuality. The church needs to act in a way consistent with the idea that "perfect love casts out fear."
There's a lot that can (and has) been said about this topic. I'd encourage you to grapple with it yourself, but to never forget that God loves all of their children. Also, if you haven't read them, God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines and Torn by Justin Lee are great books on this topic.
Warmest of wishes, friend.
I think he surrounding himself with all these homophobic information sources is just going to make it worse. Have you tried giving him a good book on being gay (or other information sources)?
I don't really have any to recommend unfortunately but you can probably find some good recommendations on one of the LGBT subs on reddit.
I think it would be good for him to have to other side properly explained to him.
EDIT: I've been trying to look up some good books. This one (God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines) seems pretty good so far. Building a Bridge by James Martin, Gay and Catholic by Eve Tushnet and Sexual Authenticity by Melinda Selmys also seem to be highly recommended pro-gay books on the catholic books part of amazon.
The sub r/GayChristians may also help
Like this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/GayChristians/comments/8sp5lu/im_a_christian_boy_in_high_school_and_im_gay/
If you are willing to read the book "God and the Gay Christian", I'll buy it on Amazon and send it to you.
This book is worth the read: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
From what I've seen, many who still affirm the Bible's validity and affirm a gay lifestyle denounce the clobber passages as mistranslated and not referring to the kind of gay relationships we see today (monogamous, committed, loving). Most argue Biblical passages are referring to pedophilia, rape, and hyper sexual (guys would have sex with other guys out of extreme lust outside marriage) relationships.
As with any issue, the Bible can be taken be both for and against homosexuality.
In the "For" corner, I recommend you look into Matthew Vines and his book God and the Gay Christian. There's agood video on YouTube where he talks at length on the topic.
In the "Against" corner, you don't have to go very far. There's a good debate where Dr. Michael Brown directly refutes everything Matthew Vines says. Or from a Catholic perspective, The Counsel of Trent podcast does the same thing.
Personally, I find Matthew Vines' arguments convincing. In my personal opinion, the prohibition on homosexuality makes sense to Jewish society thousands of years ago where survival hinged upon clear lines of inheritance. We don't work that way today. We don't need clear paternal lineages. Your mother's or sister's survival doesn't depend on you having kids who can inherit their land. Our society works compeltely differently and these rules sugar-coated in religion are obsolete.
But you do you. I've thrown some resources your way and I'm happy to answer any questions as an outsider who has studied both sides of this debate extensively.
I recommend reading https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
You may find 'God and the Gay Christian' by Matthew Vines helpful.
This book may be helpful. It helped a friend with strong Christian beliefs to see that his beliefs were not in fact in conflict with his existence as a gay man. https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
I am assuming that his world view and personal truth are based on the Bible and religion in general. So use it as a tool.
What about exposing him to more accepting churches??? There are many religious communities that are accepting of LGBT+.
There are some good arguments that the Bible is not against gays.
This is Human Rights Campaign’s article on homosexuality in the Bible.
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Mathew Vines
I'd try turning him on to some of these resources to help expand his experience as a queer christian:
Savage Lovecast podcast
https://www.savagelovecast.com/
The Bible for Normal People podcast
https://peteenns.com/podcast/
Justin Lee YouTube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/GCNJustin
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
by Matthew Vines
https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
Matthew Vines goes verse by verse summarizing the biblical scholarship as to why those passages aren’t discussing equal and loving relationships: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
Unfortunately no matter how much you try to convince someone of something, even with all the evidence/proof in the world, they may still never change their views (and this applies to everything-not just the gay debate within Christianity). Although that will be very frustrating for you, you just have to accept it. Don't beat yourself up about it if you can't get them to change their ways. You tried your best and that's all you can do. Genuinely pray for them and let God take care of the rest at his own pace. I'm not saying that's going to be the case with the person you're dealing with but just be prepared if it is. As for resources to help you, I recommend this video and this one from my favorite youtuber and these books from Matthew Vines and Susan Cottrell. (I also recommend checking out the resources pinned to this subreddit that you may also find useful or if you personally think Vine's and Cottrell's works aren't doing it)
Here’s a resource to help: https://pflag.org
Also highly recommend Matthew Vines’ God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships - https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
God bless
Yes:
Here’s a book that goes verse by verse through the lgbt relevant passages to show they’re not against equal and consensual lgbt relationships: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
And:
Here’s the essay my church produced when the rest of the Anglican Communion asked us what we thought we were doing when we moved to become lgbt affirming: https://allsaints-pas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/sethope.pdf
How about the book God and the Gay Christian? The Bible says very little about homosexuality at all, and the cases where it is talking about it the context is either about rape or pedophelia. And there are a couple characters in the Bible who were likely gay.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
>I am all for interpreting the Bible how you will but it’s just hard for me to understand the Christians who blast hatred over speakerphones and picket and yell slurs in peoples faces and feel that that is how Jesus would want them to behave.
You are under no compulsion to be a part of churches who do these things or approve of what they do though.
If it is really this sexuality issue that is bothering you there are plenty of resources on the other side of the equation to look at. Two I am aware of and know are recommended by quite a few (though I haven't read them personally so I can't comment on them myself) are Matthew Vine's (Director of the Reformation Project) God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships and Peter Cheng's (Theologian-in-Residence at St. Thomas Church Fifth Avenue in NYC and Adjunct Professor in Episcopal Divinity School at Union Theological Seminary) Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology. The multi-religious organization Believe Out Loud also keeps a directory of churches openly stating their affirmation of the identities of non-heterosexual and/or non-cisgender persons if that would be helpful.
All that to say, the portion(s) of theology pertaining to sexual/gender issues are not salvific issues. They aren't in the ancient creeds and Christians can disagree about the hermeneutical frameworks/strategies employed regarding passages like Leviticus 18 while remaining faithful Christians.
It is also fine to just suspend judgement on this issue and say "I don't know" as you look into it. You don't have to have a robustly articulated position on human sexuality in order to be a Christian.
>Unitarianism seems like something I’m interested in learning more about
So issues surrounding unitarinism are totally separate to issues pertaining to human sexuality. I am not quite sure what one has to do with the other here.
Amazon has it. God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships https://smile.amazon.com/dp/160142518X/
It's difficult to get into the theological arguments for an affirming position over Reddit, but I've got a few resources that might help you learn more about the debate and implications of an affirming position. As a gay Christian, I can say they were also helpful to accepting and affirming myself and providing answers for some of the questions I was asking.
The book that gets recommended the most is God and the Gay Christian. It's really good at laying out the basic theological arguments for affirming lgbt Christians and explores the type a-type b argument (the debate on whether lgbt Christians can marry or need to remain celibate).
If you're looking for an in depth theological discussing that discusses all of the reasons for and against affirming lgbt Christians, Bible, Gender, and Sexuality is an incredible resource for looking at all of the arguments for and against affirming lgbt Christians, as well as the shortfalls of each position. It ultimately comes to an affirming conclusion, but it does the non-affirming side justice. A lot of the arguments in God and the Gay Christian can be traced to this book, but this is more in depth. The author, James Brownson, is a professor at Western Theological Seminary, and does his best to give everyone (even those who don't agree with him) something to think about.
For some perspective of what life as a gay Christian is like, I'd recommend checking out Blue Babies Pink. You can either read Brett Trapp's stories online or listen to his podcast, but he does a good job explaining what it was like to grow up and live as a gay Christian, and the struggles he faced coming out, accepting himself, and trying to live in accordance with his faith. It doesn't explore theology, but also is safe for work. It gives a good perspective to what many gay Christians go through.
If you're interested in ministering to the lgbt community, I'd recommend meeting and listening to people of faith who belong to the lgbt community (if you haven't done this already). Listen to their stories and the pain many of them go through. Listen to what their specific needs are. Many of them will be the same needs everyone else needs like community, support, and places to use their gifts. Listen to how their needs for these differ than what is being provided to them or they are allowed to participate in.
Ultimately your job as an ally (if you choose to be one) is to not use your own voice, but to amplify the voices of members of the lgbt community. Don't try to speak on behalf of us, but use your position to give us voices. Put members of the community on the podium instead of yourself whenever possible, because we're the most qualified to speak on our needs and our pain. Of course that doesn't mean you can't discuss lgbt issues with others without a member of the lgbt community present. There are many forums you can go to that we cannot. Just make sure when you do you do your best to articulate the experiences that we've had.
Most importantly make sure that any discussion of the lgbt community you have is discussing the fact that regardless of position, the discussion is about people. It's regarding the life lgbt Christians and non-believers experience every day. Nothing dehumanize us and turns us away from the church more than being treated as just an issue.
I hope this gives you some good places to start. As a gay Christian, I've got grace for people like you who are asking legitimate questions and are wrestling with what the bible says vs. what the Bible means and what God says. Even if you end up with a non-affirming position, I believe it doesn't have to be inherently hurtful to the community. As long as you recognize the pain the lgbt community as a whole has experienced, how most churches aren't equipped to satisfy our spiritual needs, and recognize what you're truely asking of gay Christians when you say they need to remain celibate, you can still help the church better minister to lgbt Christians. I wish you the best on your spiritual journey
Here is something I have written to similar questions in the past. Just one of the many perspectives:
The bible really doesn't say too much about same sex relationships at all. There are a few verses about it in the context of lust and sex alone but that is about it. [And the last one you posted, OP, talks about heterosexual marriage but does not say it is an exclusive definition] I am of the opinion that you can't really take these verses and apply them to a modern understanding of homosexuality, one that includes marriage, family and committed relationships. I think when the bible was written homosexuality was thought of as being a purely sexual construct (or at least the authors interpreted it in that way) and therefore was thought to always be sinful. Just like heterosexual relationships are if they are only experienced in a sexual aspect alone. Now that we know that gay people can accomplish all the things in relationships that straight people can accomplish, I think we need to re-evaluate the concept along with our new understanding.
Besides the actual biblical reasons I don't believe Christians have much support for saying being gay is a sin, I also just don't think it meshes with what I was taught about God growing up. When I see a happy family that happens to include a same sex couple and their children. Maybe even one that goes to church every week and raises their kids to be good people and have faith, this just makes absolutely no sense to me.
There are a lot of LGBT affirming churches if you think that may be of help. You may also find /r/OpenChristian to be of help. If you are interested in learning more about the bible and homosexuality from a more affirming perspective, you may find this video helpful. Matthew Vines, the guy in the video, also has a book out.
This is pretty much my go-to post whenever this comes up:
My position rests on the fact that the biblical definition of homosexuality is incomplete, while heterosexuality enjoys a complete understanding. Homosexuality is only discussed in terms of lust and sex in the bible. It is as if this is the only way it is understood to be expressed. Simply expressing yourself through lust and sex alone is sinful even for heterosexuals. Since this is the only was the bible defines homosexuality, it is only discussed as being sinful. Heterosexuality, however, has another step where sex is joined with dating followed by commitment and family which leads to it becoming non-sinful. Now, while this step also exists for homosexual couples, it is not discussed in the bible. Therefore, we really don't know if taking this step for same sex couples changes the sinfulness or not. The bible doesn't say anything about same sex marriage. I don't see exclusion as necessarily meaning something is wrong or doesn't exist, but that it simply wasn't seriously considered or understood at the time. Therefore, we need to analyze it for ourselves. Are same sex couples capable of the same things that heterosexual couples are?
I think it's pretty clear that the answer is yes. Maybe a good start for you would be looking at some LGBT friendly churches. That may open the door to a nice community.
You may also be interested in /r/OpenChristian.
Also, maybe check out Matthew Vines. You could read about his book in the Q&A section of this page to get an idea of his beliefs. He also has a video that may be helpful.
Gay Christian chiming in here: If your parents love you and respect you, they'll be willing to journey with you. If you put in the time and effort to walk with them through it something good can come of this. Don't just give up on them because it's easier.
Here are some resources that could help: - The Liturgist Podcast: http://www.theliturgists.com/podcast/2015/5/18/episode-20-lgbtq - Matthew Vines Book "God and the Gay Christian": https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477192358&sr=8-1&keywords=god+and+the+gay+christian
If you have any questions or need someone to talk to feel free to message me!
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